The Case of the Black Fist, Spiders in the Sperm and a Salamander in the Brainstem

Exploring a Physical Developmental Issue in the Imaginal Domain




Fred C. Olsen, M.Div. Copyright 1993


Session Transcripts: Part 3

May 24, 1993

Fifth session with J. (length 2.5 hours, Total 13 hours)

F: Tell me what's been happening since our last session?

J: I almost didn't come in today.  I'm still just wiped out.  Actually, this morning, I didn't feel well.  I might have just gotten carsick coming in, I don't know.  One of the things that disturbed me was when I woke up this morning, the neck area felt swollen, I mean, while I was still in bed.  I honestly don't know if that's new.  I don't really think I ever checked it out while I've still been in bed.  It's always been after I've been up.

F: Mm hmm.

J: Uhh, so, that was really kind of depressing…

F: Mm Hmm.

J: …to think that, cause to me, it seems like that would be, you know, real rested and everything.  That would be when everything wouldn't feel swollen and everything would feel really good.  It's less swollen now than it was this morning, so, I don't know what that means.

F: What happened over the weekend?

J: My god daughter went to her aunts, so I didn't get to spend any time with her, but I've been going through this book I was telling you about, where you draw.  You be your inner child with your left hand,you know, and then you have this dialogue with your right hand and your left hand.  And, uh. I'm enjoying that.  The inner child is just basically saying "Let's play, let's just play" (laughter.  And I said, you know, well, you know, what about this stuff with Fred, and basically the inner child said "Well, yeah, if you want to do that it's fine, but I really think we ought to just play? (laughter) I said,"We'll play, but I still have to do this with Fred." (laughter)

So, I'd like to work some more in the neck, it's still swollen.  This little patch up here is getting smaller, you know, where my brain is going up.  And that little cavity there, is getting smaller daily, it seems.  It seems just like a small little puddle.  My old salamander is still swimming around in there, so, I'm going to have to find a new place for him to swim.  He can swim down here, (pointing to neck area) but he keeps splashing away up there.  That does keep getting smaller.

F: He likes it up there?

J: Yeah, for some reason he still likes it up there.  I still don't like that salamander (laughing), and, uhm, when I was thinking about him frolicking in the water, I'd like him so much better if he was a seal, so I tried to make him into a seal, but he's not cooperating.  He's just staying a salamander, (laughing)


F: He doesn't want any changes in his being?

J: (laughing) No. No. No.  We'll, he's much more apt on land than a seal is so, uhh, I tried to spend some time, I have been just using the color orange in my visualization when I've been looking at the neck area, just using it as a healing color.  I can't really get anything.  And then I thought about, you said to think about alligators and lizards and what do they mean.  I didn't do a real good job of that.  I can't get out of my head that they are, what I know about them, is that they're about as prehistoric, the turtle, probably is more, but they're right up there with a….

F: What we' may looking at, is the primitive brain.

J: Yeah.

F: They're symbols of the reptillion brain, or whatever...

J: Yeah, no kidding.

F: It's interesting that they came up in this context.

J: Yeah, yeah, no kidding.

F: Also, you said that you saw J.J. (Feldenkrais practitioner) again.

J: Yup, she worked on, let's see, it was more like in the hip area.  We just got lots of movement.  We didn't have enough time to work on the neck area.  She just, she worked a little bit on my neck, but mostly on the hip, right here.  The lower back got lots of movement.

F: And that's new?

J: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  The depth of what she was able to get was definitely new.  I'm going to see her tomorrow, but there's no significant change to the leg dragging, that I can see.  It seems to be the same, yeah, it is.  I'm real curious about this sense of swelling in the morning though.  I'll pay attention now, to see.  I just always assumed that it was less in the morning and got worse in the day.

F: Is the rope still gone?

J: Yeah, the rope's still gone.  I still think there's something in the hip area, that piece of plexiglass.  I'm not sure it's totally gone.  If there's anything, it's like a thin layer.  The rope's definitely gone.

F: What about the business woman?  What's happening with her?

J: Uhm, I think she's the one that's so tired, (laughing) hmm.

F: It's too much for her to take in.

J: I guess, uhm.


F: It's a major identity...

J: Yeah, I mean, it's like I, I have no identity right now, because, I mean, I was hard charging, I mean a twelve hour day was a short day for me.  I didn't work weekends, but I would get in at seven o'clock in the morning and leave at eight thirty at night.  Sometimes I couldn't sleep and I'd get in at five and return home at the same time.  So, uhm, it's okay though, I'm ready to leave that behind.  Uhm, and I am getting more comfortable at just being.  Well, I can't really say, because I'm not really.  I can't just kind of sit, I mean progress for me has been, I can sit and read, and that's all.  This weekend I did a lot of just sitting and just kind of looking at the blue sky and at the clouds, and reading and reading and looking at the blue sky.  I still have a tinge of "What a frump you are.  How can you do this?"  But it feels so good. (laughing)

F: Well, at least you feel good.

J: Yeah, yeah.  And I'm really enjoying this little exploration with the inner child.  I mean, I really look forward to that. I'm amazed at how good that I can draw, I'm a terrible drawer, but I mean...

F: So, you're drawing, too?

J: Yeah, one of the first exercises was to draw your inner child, and then have a dialogue, introduce each other, and talk to each other.  The second exercise was to ask the inner child to draw what he or she wanted most, right now.  My inner child said that I needed to be well.  She drew a picture from here to here (indicating heart area to top of head).  She drew my spinal column and had all three things like my images that I've had since I've been doing the visualizations.  One was, or had the salamander and the alligator and it had the turtle.  It was called a Japanese green cheese turtle.  There was another image that I had.  Whales have been important in the images.  So, they're in there.  Then there were a Sun, this big bright Sun, and birds, and butterflies, and then there were some things like I just got.  I used to play my flute and I just got it all reconditioned, because I'm going to start playing when I go to Hawaii, with a lot of time on my hands, to playing away on that.  So, I put my flute in there, and stuff.  So, you do all this drawing with your left hand.

F: Another image that popped up for me while I was doing this transcript was, you know, you started with the black fist and later you had these swollen fingers, those thick fingers, I was just wondering, the thought that came to me was that you had this fist and then it opened up with these thick fingers.  I was wondering if that was a connected image.

J: Well, it's connected, let's see. It’s connected in a literally, hmm, how it's connected is, I've had this numbness in my elbow and in my fingers.  The numbness in my fingers makes them feel like they're swollen, and there are times when that numbness totally goes away, both in my elbows and my hands.  They're probably as bad as they get, right now.

F:So, they are as bad as they get?

J: Yeah, right now, but I mean, yeah, but it kind of cycles. Sometimes it's....

F: The cycles have been throughout, not just when you've been working, as we're working on this stuff....

J: Yeah.

F: Has it gotten less compared to before?  Has the numbness been more constant, or has it cycled there, as well.

J: It cycled there, as well.  It's not any better, or any worse, I think.  I haven't really tracked it, but it doesn't, I don't have consciousness of it being worse, or better.

F: So, a couple of things we want to focus on today is the swelling and also the hip.

J: Yeah, yeah, I'm most concerned about the swelling.

F: So, let's go into that swelling.

J: It's dark, but there's bright orange in the background.  It’s like the Sun coming up or setting.  I think setting, the colors are more like setting, it's rounded on the top.

F: What's rounded?

J: The dark part, the black....

F: What's that dark part, the black part made out of.  What material?

J: Hmm, flesh.  The flesh itself is not the black, I don't think.  It's just wherever the lights are that's black, but it's soft like flesh.

F: So the flesh is not black, but it's because of the light.

J: Yeah.

F: Where are you watching it from?

J: I'm in front of it.  I'm about I'm not sure how far away, maybe three feet or so away.  I'm pretty close to it.

F: Okay, and how old are you?

J: I think I'm like twenty-eight.  I'm either now, or I'm yeah, I think I'm in my twenties.

F: What's that twenty-eight year old wearing, right now?

J: I keep getting these two images, I get a twenty-eight year old in a suit and I see myself now, in a sweatshirt.  I keep ...(gesturing)


F: They're alternating?

J: Yeah.

F: Okay, notice...

J: It's the twenty-eight year old, in a suit.  It's getting real clear, now.

F: Okay.

J: Yeah, hmm.

F: What's she feeling, or what's happening with her?

J: She's carrying something like a briefcase.  She's cold because it's so dark, and, uhh, It's cold and breezy.

F: So she feels cold.  What did the one in the sweatshirt feel?

J: Huh, the one in the sweatshirt sees more light, and warmer.

F: Mmm.

J: She's back a little bit further.  The sun's kind of shining on the one in the sweatshirt and the twenty-eight year old, in the suit, is closer and like standing so close to this mountain, this dark mountain, it’s like the shadow comes over her so the sun doesn't hit her.

F: So both of you are there, but one's closer in and one's further back.

J: Mm hmm.

F: So, you in the sweatshirt, what's your response to the twenty- eight year old?

J: (tears) I'm sorry for her cause she's really all alone and she's struggling against all the elements.  Uh she's so into where she is that she can't see.  If she could just step back a little bit.

F: Okay.

J:. How pretty and bright everything is.

F: What would you like to do with her?

J: Uhm, take her by the hand and bring her back where I am.

F: Can you do that?

J: Yeah, I can.

F: How does she respond?

J. She likes it, she likes the warmth, she's smiling, but she's anxious to get back where she was.

F: She's anxious to get back where she was?

J: Anxious is maybe too strong a word but, she is kind of agitated, and wants to get back where she was.

F: How do you feel about that?

J. (tears)  It makes me sad.

F: Where do you feel that sadness?

J: Uhm, in my throat and just right in here.

F: In the heart area?

J: Yeah.

F: So, when you go to the sadness, what do you see?

J: It’s dark.

F: It’s dark?

J: Yeah, I can't see anything.

F: What's that darkness like?

J: It’s real empty.  It sounds like when you walk inside a big warehouse, with nothing in it, and your footsteps echo.

F: So, are you there?

J: Mm hmm.


F: How old are you in that picture, in the warehouse?

J: I think I'm about twenty-four,-or twenty-eight.  I think I'm twenty-four.

F: Hmm, and what are you wearing?

J: I can't see it.

F: What's that twenty-four-year old feeling?

J: A little bit scared, a little bit lonely and uncomfortable.  I don't like the smell of this warehouse.

F: What does she need?

J: To get out of the warehouse and go someplace where there is a nice meadow, or up on a hill, or where there is nice green and light, nice smells, fresh smells.

F: What does she need in order to do that?

J: I can just take her by the hand and take her there.

F: Can you? What happens when you do?

J: She likes it, but she doesn't want to be there forever.

F: Okay, what does she need?

J: She needs the outdoors where we are, but she needs something else too, something she can do.

F: Okay, she needs something she can do.

J: Something that has meaning.

F: Okay.

J: Something that's fun, but something that will give her time to come back out to the meadow and to nature.

F: Okay, so she wants something that she can do that's meaningful that also allows her the space to come out to the meadow.

J: But what she does has to be fun too.

F: Okay.

J. In fact, coming to the meadow, isn't so much fun as it is rejuvenating for her.

F: Ahh.

J: Nah, she kind of sees it as fun too, yeah.

R: So, going to the meadow is fun and rejuvenating.

J: Mm hmm, but not enough.

F: It's not enough, because there is also something she needs to do, that's also fun.

J: Mm hmm.

F: And that's the balance?  Is there anything else that she needs?

J: I keep hearing time, she needs time.  Hmm, l'm not sure what time means.

F: Time for what?

J: She needs time, what does she need time for?  Time to rejuvenate first, and time to figure out what this other thing is.

F: So she needs time to rejuvenate and time to figure out, or feel her way into the next thing that she can do.  How do you respond to her?

J: I think it's a great idea, I'm, uh, it's curious to me that she's twenty-four and doing this.

F: What was happening at twenty-four?

J: Twenty-two to twenty-four, I just moved to San Francisco.  I just had just started.  I had taught two years in the rural world, in high school.  I came to live in San Francisco and started teaching in Daly City.  It was my first time to teach in the city.  I spent the summer in an inner-city project in Watts, no, not in Watts, in Detroit to prepare me for the inner-city schools in Daly City.  I mean, I was really excited, I was in a brand new school, with a new philosophy of teaching and doing well. It was the furthest thing from being discontent with what I was doing.  I guess, the only discontent I had was that I was spending so much time preparing because I was in a new school and I hadn't been a teacher that long, so I spent a lot of time preparing.

F: There wasn't much time for fun, except that work was fun

J: Yeah, right, right.  And some of the things the twenty-four year old wants, I had then, I mean at that point, I really felt that what I was doing, I mean, it was fun, it was challenging, and it had meaning.  I had a sense of contributing to mankind and society, kind of doing your part.

F: Mm hmm.

J: All those needs were definitely filled.  I was young and naive and totally not disillusioned, so I just really believed that what I was doing would really make a difference.

F: So those are qualities that the twenty-four year old had.  She felt like she really had her ideals about making a difference...

J: Really dedicated.

F: Dedicated.

J: I do miss that (tears), I miss it a lot, yeah.

F: So that's real important to you.

J: I guess it is, yeah, yeah.  It's, uhm, it makes me really sad that I've worked so hard since then and it doesn't make a difference.  I left the school system because I got so disillusioned, because I didn't feel that I was making a difference.

F: Mmm.

J: I mean, it was such an uphill battle, and well, at least I was trying, and I just kind of gave up trying.  But I also know that if you try and you're not making a difference, that's a pretty awful place to be, too.

F: Mmm.

J: A catch-22 I guess, maybe it's just to try to find another, something that's smaller, trying to fix the school system. The school system is just so big.

F: So something really important for the twenty-four year old is to really make a meaningful contribution, to make a difference.

J: Make a difference, make things better, I mean, it doesn't.

F: She tried real hard and got disillusioned, so she said forget this.

J: This is a waste of time, so, I opted for, there was no appreciation for what I was doing, so I opted for the business world.  At least, the people that I worked for and the company that I worked for appreciated what I did.  Societal wise, it didn't make a difference, but at least there were some people that appreciated what I did.

F: So it's real important for you to be appreciated for your contribution.

J: It's important not to be taken for granted, or this sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a difference.  It's important that I not, that I not, let's see, that people not appreciate me.  I mean, they don't have to appreciate me, they need to not appreciate me, what I mean by that is that I don't need lots of kudos, or anything, but it bugs me if people...

F: You don't need kudos for kudos sake,...

J: But, I also don't need to be put down for my efforts, or, let me give you an example.  I was calling parents because their kids were cutting school, and I was getting grief back from the parents.  "I sent him off to school, and it's your responsibility that he stays there," that kind of stuff.  They didn't need to say you're doing a great job keeping my kid in school.  I didn't need that, but I didn't need the, kind of like, you know, l thought we were on the same side, and it ended up seeming like we were enemies, or something.  I don't really like it when I get a lot of kudos, or open recognition.  So, yeah, I do need to be appreciated, but not overly.

F: You need to be appreciated for your efforts, not necessarily for who you are?

J: Yeah, I guess. I guess I do need to be appreciated, I guess (laughing) this is what it all boils down to.  Yeah, I do need to be appreciated.  I don't need all the stuff, but yeah.

F: So it's okay to be appreciated.

J: Yeah.

F: Not as an obsession, or whatever, but it makes a difference

J: Mm hmm, the other thing I'm just thinking about, is mm, is that I put so much into what I do, whatever it is.  This balance thing is a hard one for me.

F: So you have a lot of passion.

J: Yeah.

F: And it's important for you to feel that your passion is making a difference.  And that difference, that difference is not just being pushed up against a stone wall.  Your talents, your creativity and your passion, are moving forward in some way that creates meaning and...

J: I knew that was there, I just didn't know that it was so strong.

F: It got squelched.


J: Yeah.


F: So you gave up.

J: Yeah.

F: So this twenty-four year old is real important now.

J: Mm hmm.

F: When you meet her and take her out of the warehouse that's so empty into the field, what's happening between you?

F: I'm just kind of watching her.  At one minute, she's just kind of childlike, wandering around, the next minute, she's very introverted and just pensive and breathing in the air and taking in the sights, and uh, internally processing things.  She's more that than she is childlike, but she has bursts of turning around in circles, looking at the sky, and uhm .  I'm more of the observer.  We don't really interact.  I'm just observer.  I'm like the wise teacher, or something.

F: You're the wise teacher.

J: Yeah. (laughing), figure that one out.

F: Well, really, so, what would this wise teacher like to do with this twenty-four year old?

J: Hug her, be more connected as cohorts rather than wise teacher and a twenty-four year old.

F: So you have something to offer each other.

J: Yeah.

F: So, is it possible to meet her and to hug her.

J: Yeah, I already did that.

F: What's happening between you now?

J: We're just looking at each other, and holding hands, and uhh, coming to an agreement that we're going to be companions.  Mm hmm, she takes my wisdom and I take her innocence and enthusiasm and optimism.  She takes my wisdom, my more down to earth experience.

F: So what happens when you combine those...?


J: Uhm, it's very, we were up on this mountain.  Now it's like a big meadow, but it's like we're on the top of a mountain that's a huge meadow.  It's not like we're in a meadow and there are mountains all around.  At the top it was like a small ledge, that we we're on, now it's wide open.  It feels real comfortable.  It feels like there's a little tension of anticipation, but not frantic.  It's just a little bit of tension there.

F: So, it's a positive anticipation, something’s coming.

J: Things are coming, or we're going to go to it.  I don't know which it is.

F: So, what would you like to do?

J: I think, just walk hand in hand through this meadow and see where it takes us.  It's very big, and it's got lots of flowers.  The flowers are almost waist high, but it's easy to walk through them.  It's like mustard, a little bit of white mustard, no thorns or stickers.  It's real soft.

F: So it's different than the meadow before.

J: Yeah, it was more like a landing, with flowers that were low and the flowers weren’t as thick.  You couldn't just walk, I mean, in this one, you can walk forever.  It was on a ledge. There wasn't a lot of room.  There wasn't a long way to go anywhere.

F: The last time we were together, there was a meadow, as well, how is this one different than that meadow?

J: I don't remember that meadow.

F: It had a fence around it. You were spinning and throwing dirt and weeds.

J: Ohh, right, right, yeah.  No, this one is real different.  Right, right, right, right, right.  That meadow was weeds. There weren't a lot of flowers, it was just, you know, not real dry weeds, but weeds.  There weren't thorns or thistles in that either, but it was definitely weeds. This meadow is flowers, and,…

F: So, that's a shift.

J: Yeah, and there is no fence.

F: And it's on a mountain.  So, there's a different feeling about this one, than that one.

J: Yeah, this one is much more alive.  That one is kind of like the weeds are just about to go to seed, but they haven't gone to seed yet.  This is much more like spring, there's a lot more flowers.

F: Feel the difference.

J: Mm hmm.

F: What's happening with the salamander and the alligator?

J: Hmm, they're watching us as we walk away, because we're walking away from them.  They're kind of standing.  We're walking that way, away from them. They're not on the tree. They're just on the ground.  The ground's moist, not muddy, but moist.  The alligator's much smaller than it was.  Before, it was standing up in the tree, now it's standing on the ground, next to the salamander.  They're just watching us walk away.

F: That feels okay?

J: Yeah, it doesn't feel like we're coming back, either.

F: Okay, so when you and the twenty-four year old are connected, what's happening to the twenty-eight year old?

J. She's tagging along behind us.  Uhh, man, the grass, it's kind of like grass.  It's getting really tall, like up to our necks.  The twenty-eight-year old is behind us, and it's still a little bit above her waist.  She's, uhm, she doesn't know why she's following us, but she thinks she ought to.

F: She thinks she ought to?

J: Yeah.

F: So how do you and the twenty-four year old feel about her?

J: She's liable to mess things up, she's so hard driving.

F: So, if she's liable to mess things up, what would you like to do?

J: Uhm, part of me just wants to let her go do her thing and come back when she's finished.  Another part of me wants to sit down with her and tell her that's not the right thing.  I don't think that will do any good.

F: Which part of you wants to just let her go and do her thing?

J: Uhm, this part of me that's tired.  It will take a lot of energy to get her to let go of what she's got.

F: So, where's that tired part of you?

J: It's in my shoulders, it's in my neck.

F: So, let's tune into your shoulders where that tiredness lives. And what does it look like?

J: I see red, a red line, across my shoulders.  Uhm it's like heat coming off of a sand dune or something.

F: And where are you?

J: I'm kind of standing back, looking at it.  I'm standing on one mountain top.  This is happening on another mountain top.  It's quite a ways away.

F: And how old are you on that mountain top?

J: Twenty-eight.

F: So the twenty-eight-year old is standing on one mountain top, and watching another mountain top where all this heat is rising.  It’s a long distance away, so, she's pretty distant from that tiredness.

J: Yup, not too interested in it either.

F: Okay, so, what is she doing?

J: She's turning her back and starting to walk away, coming towards me but away from the mountain-top with the heat on it.

F: Coming towards you?

J: She's turning and walking off to my right, off this way.

F: And what would you like to do?

J: Let her go.

F: What happens when you let her go?

J: (tears),that makes me sad too.  Ahh, cause I love her a lot (crying).

F: Okay, so what do you need?

J: I still think I need to let her go.

F: And what would you like to communicate to her as she goes?  What do you need to complete with her?

J: I mean, she doesn't even see me.  Ahm, she's so focused on where ever she's going.  She doesn't even see me (with strong feeling).

F: But you know where that goes, leads, right?

J: Yeah.

F: Where does it lead for her?

J: Well, it's a great roller coaster ride, while it lasts, and then, it's a dead end, uhhh...

F: So, you know that she's heading down this roller coaster ride, but it's a dead end.  She's heading for a dead end.

J: But, I don't think I can, I mean, she's going to have to experience that I don't think there s anything I can say to her, or anything I can do to convince her that she shouldn't go on that roller coaster ride.

F: So go back to when she started out on this roller coaster ride.

J: Okay

F: What’s happening?

J: She's real excited, working hard, learning a lot.  She's making a difference with people, teaching managers how to be humane, managers who take responsibility for creating a healthy working environment for the people.

F: She's really carrying out some of that passion and that vision that she had

J: Yeah.

F: And she's also getting some appreciation that she didn't get, and all that stuff.  So, there are some real qualities that are important.

J: Yeah, and you appreciate that about her.

J: Mm hmm.

F: So, when you realize that, is there anything you want to say, or do?

J: I think at that point, I want to say keep doing what you're doing.  You're making a contribution.  Keep it up.

F: So, you can really truly value and appreciate the contribution that she makes, even though she was too close to the problem.  Okay, so what's happening now?

J: I'm just watching her do her thing, enjoying watching her do what she's doing.

F: Uh huh.

J: I'm curious as to when things got out of whack.  It wasn't when she was twenty-eight, that's for sure.

R: So, what's the twenty-four year old doing about that?

J: Mmm, she's just waiting so we can continue our walk in the meadow.

F: Okay, then, you are interested in what happened to the twenty-eight year old that threw her off track.  Can you track that point?

J: She's managing a training function, doing less teaching, doing more of administration, making decisions about what ought to be taught, rather than teaching people. She’s hiring people, firing people, getting involved in the political structures in the corporation. From there, it just seemed to get worse and worse and worse.  Yeah.

F; Okay, so, when she switched roles...

J: Kind of moved into management.

F: That didn't work for her.

J: Well, let's see.  That didn't work for her.  I think that's true.

F: So her real gift was in teaching.

J: I think the contribution to be made, was in the teaching.  It’s not so much that the gift is made, it's where the contribution can be made.

F: So, the value of making a contribution came stronger through you while you were teaching.  When you switched into more of the administration and power structure, that started to sour for you.


J: It didn't sour. I still really thought I was having fun.  As I think back on it now, it was pretty hollow.  It doesn't have the meaning and the passion that the teaching did, but it was very challenging.  It had its own rewards, but when I think about what really gave me a sense of satisfaction, it was the little bit of teaching I could eke out of the new roles that I had.  Being able to teach people, who were working for me, how to do whatever it is, they were doing better. Teaching executives how to do things with their people that made them more productive and their environment more warm and good for people was what was satisfying.

F: Okay.

J: But those, I mean, towards the end, that was maybe 20-30% of my job, at best, the rest was dealing with the politics, and the budgets, and all that stuff.

F: So, with that awareness, what happens between you and the twenty- eight-year old?

J: Uhm, well, I don't want her to just go marching off to do this now.  You know, to hit this brick wall, I think I can convince her to go with us through this meadow, because she could still do what she's doing now, but she doesn't have to go through this other piece, this other roller coaster ride.

F: Can she hear that?

J: Mm hmm, as long as she can do what she's doing now, that's okay.  I can't really get her to come with us.  It's too much, it's too much, it's just too much.  Well, at least she acknowledges me, she can see me, she talks to me, she acknowledges me.

F: Mm hmm, she acknowledges that you have a contribution to make?

J: Yeah she really likes what she's doing.

F: Does that help her, so she doesn't make the mistakes?

J: Mm hmm, it's kind of like this big question mark, then, uhm, then what?

F: It's yours or hers?

J: I guess it's mine.  l'm not quite sure.  She really likes what she's doing.  I guess it's me that’s saying, “yeah, but you won't like it.  You'll get bored and want to do something else," it's me.

F: Mm hmm, that's okay, right?

J: Yeah.

F: Okay, so, what are you doing there?

J: I’m watching her do her thing with my twenty-four-year old, who wants to go walking down the meadow..Its really interesting, because the twenty-eight-year old was like a giant, and, uhh, me and the twenty-four-year old are watching this giant teach these managers.  There’s this meadow off to the left, and we want to walk down it.  The giant twenty-eight year old can see the meadow.  She can see us, and eventually would like to walk with us through this meadow.

F: Mm hmm.

J: Right now, she wants to stay where she is.

F: okay.

J: For some reason, the twenty-four year old and I can't just turn our back and leave her there

F: So what would you like to do?

J: Well, we could sit on a log and watch her for a while, until she can get it out her system.

F: What happens when you do that?

J: She's starting to get down to our size now.  Still, um, her classroom's turned into a meadow, and she's our size now.  No students are there, and she's still teaching away.  I'm going to go get her.  Okay, she's walking with us,but she keeps looking back at the meadow, where her classroom was.

F: What does she need?

J: I think she needs to know she can go back if she wants to she can go back.  She still keeps looking back.

F: What does she need in order to feel that she can return?

J: One is that we're not going to go far, but I think we're going to go far.  I was thinking about leaving a path, trail markers, or something, so she can find her way back.

F: What is it about the classroom that draws her, calls her?

J: The instant feedback that you have made a difference.  You can see it in the student’s eyes, and in their bodies. Uhm, the attention that you get being the teacher.

F: Is that something you and the twenty-four- year old like, too?

J: When I think about it, it just makes me tired, cause it's, you have to pay such close attention when you’ve got a classroom of people, it's very tiring.  So, you know, I'd be much more comfortable teaching one on one, or one on two or three, rather than teaching in a classroom.  The twenty-four-year old is kind of oblivious, not oblivious, but she could go one way of the other.  She just wants to go see what is on the other side of the meadow.

F: She's still the one who wanted to make the contribution, right?

J: Yeah, but she doesn't have this feeling that it has to be in a classroom, even teaching, just make a contribution somewhere.

F: How does the twenty-eight year old feel about that kind of attitude?

J: Uhm, it's much too open ended for her, much too undefining, ambiguous, flakey.

F: So, is there some agreement that can be made between the three of you?

J: Let's see, the twenty-four year old is the most open to just whatever.  It has to be meaningful, but it has to be fun. It has to have balance in it, otherwise, it's pretty undefined.  I want something that's not going to exhaust me, has time for intraspection.

F: You say, something that's not going to exhaust me.  Can you turn that into a positive statement?

J: Okay, something that's going to rejuvenate me.  Uhm, that's going to give me time for intraspection and provide a comfortable life.

F: And what about the twenty-eight year old?

J: The twenty-eight year old wanted to say, high recognition, but realizes that's counter to rejuvenating.

F: She assumes it is?

J: Yeah, that's true.  That's the twenty-eight year old.  The twenty-eight year old wants something that's invigorating, challenging, has a probability for failure, that makes it exciting, exciting, that's what she needs.

F: So it has some risk to it.

J: Yeah.

F: Exciting, challenging, an element of risk.

J: All those things to me are exhausting.  The twenty-four year old could live with all those things.

F: The twenty-four year old has openess to the unknown, a sense of meaning  The twenty-eight-year old has this desire for excitement, challenge, and you want some introspection, rejuvenation and a guarantee thatit's going to be fun, rejuvenating, and so forth.  When you combine those, is there some , are those elements that could possibly work together.  If you put those pieces into a puzzle, a mosaic…


J: That's the challenge.

F: The twenty-eight year old likes challenges.  Could you assign that (laughing)

J: The twenty-eight year old.

F: The challenge and the excitement of making all those things work.  Part of the challenge isthat there will be rejuvenation, fun, meaning and openness.

J: For sure, there's a better chance of figuring it out by the twenty-eight-year old, than by me.  The twenty-four-year old is just so wide open.  I don't think the twenty-four year old could figure it out.  I get so turned off at the thought of it, it just sounds very tiring to me, I can't... That could be a fun project for the twenty-eight-year old to figure out.

F: So if she has that project, does that help her come along?

J: Yeah, yeah, ohh, she's skipping and... yeah!

F: So that gives her a meaningful, challenging, exciting, risky...

J: Yeah.

F project

J. Uh huh.

F: ...that she can get her teeth into.

J: Uh huh.

F: And with that task deligated to her, how do the other two feel?

J: Oh, we're fine, because whatever she comes up with, we all have to agree on  So, if its too taxing and out of balance, we'll make her go back and work on it some more.

F: So, if it's not meaningful, and rejuvenating and open in some ways...

J: She won't suggest it, yeah.

F: So the three of you are somewhat in alignment?

J: What a relief, it's a relief for me, yeah.


F: So what's happening?

J: Uhh, I'm feeling some relief in my shoulders and my neck.

F: What's happening on that mountain top, or the...

J: Meadow?

F: The sandy dunes with the heat?

J: It's approaching sunset, it's cooling down.  The colors are getting real reddish orange.  It's very calm, quiet.  There's no wind to stir up the sand.  The sun just set.  I can still see the sand and the moon.

F: Mm hmm.

J: Very still.

F: You feel that.

J: Mm hmm.

F: And where do you feel that in your body?

J: My shoulders are more relaxed.  I feel more settled in my stomach.  I feel it in my breathing.  I feel it in my face. It's funny, the image is gone, the image of the sand and the moon light.

F: What's there now?

J: I can't see anything.

F:The feeling is still that calm feeling?

J: Yeah.

F: So, go up to your neck, to where the swelling was this morning.  What do you see there now?

J: Like something happened to my neck, it's like my shoulders, it's like my head is sitting on my shoulders and there's no neck.

F: Hmm.


J: I don't know what happened to it.  I get the sense that there's still swelling there, though.  What happened to my neck?

F: When did it leave?

J: It was there when I saw the moon and the sand.  I can see the moon and the sand again.  When I see the moon and the sand, I can see my neck.  When I try to see my neck, I just see my shoulders and my head.

F: So, when you see the moon and the sand, you can see your neck, hmm.  It sounds a little bit like when we were working with the teenager and the three year old.  When you looked at the three year old, the teenager wasn't there, but when you looked at the teenager, the three year old was internalized in the teenager.

J: Mm hmm.

F: So when you keep the moon and the sand in the picture, you have a neck.

J: It seems swollen, but it's there.

F: What's happening to the original dark mound that the twenty-eight year old was so close to?

J: I can pull up that image, but it's not there naturally, it's the sand dune.

F: So the sand dune and the moon replaces it.  Where are you in that picture?

J: I'm in front of it, I'm looking at it, it's a scene, but I feel like I'm pretty close to it.  It feels like a picture, like a picture of something that's far away, but you're standing close to the picture. That's what it feels like.

F: So you see the picture.

J: Yeah.

F: What would you like to do with that picture?

J: Uhm, I'm standing here trying to figure out do, I want to hang it up.  What do I want to do with it?

F: Who's standing there trying to figure it out?

J: Ah, I think it's still the twenty-eight year old.  Yeah, shoot, it is. (laughing)  I'm not sure if it's the twenty-eight-year old that's in front of the picture, or if it's the twenty-eight-year old who’s trying to hang it up.  It's me trying to figure out what to do with it.  In front of the picture is the twenty-eight year old.  So, I'm looking at this picture.  In this picture is this mound with the moon and the sand dunes and the twenty-eight year old in front of it.

F: In front of the mound in the picture?

J: In the picture.

F: She's in the picture?

J: Yeah.

F: Okay.

J: So, I guess what I'd like to do is make it not a picture, but make it a scene.  I can do that.

F: And when it becomes a scene, what happens?

J: The twenty-eight year old is looking at me.  I want her to look around and look at the picture.  She keeps looking at me.  Okay, now she's turned around looking at the picture in this scene, I'm trying to get us to stand next to each other while we're looking at this scene.  She's in front of me.  I can't get us together.

F: So, what's keeping you apart?

(tape change)

J: What's keeping us apart?  I don't think she can see me.

F: So, what do you need in that picture for her to see you?

J: If I go stand next to her, I'm not sure she can see me.  I know that if I touch her, I fade in and out.  Sometimes she can see me, and sometimes she can't.

F: So touching is a way...

J: Yeah, it helps.

F: Okay, what else needs to happen?

J: If I just talk to her and say, "Come with me, it'll be okay."  She acknowledges it and says "Yeah, I know it will be okay."  Now we're looking at the scene together.  She seems okay, she seems, but I thought she was okay before, and there she is again, uhm.  She seems real independent, though.  She's willing to go, willing to come.  She can see me.  She can see the scene, but she's more committed to herself, than she is to us.

F: Mm hmm.

J: Self reliant, and all that.

F: Is that okay with you?

J: It's okay except (laughing), every time we turn around, I don't want to have to face this twenty-eight-year old and keep going through this. (laughing)

F: She wants to maintain her self-reliance.

J: Yeah.

F: But, she's willing to go along.

J: Yeah, yeah!

F: Well, that's progress.

J: That's true (laughing), 0h! My god.

F: What do you need in order for it not to be so much work, this relationship with the twenty-eight year-old.

J: I guess I need patience and trust in the process, more patience and courage.

F: Mm hmm, so, where in your body is the patience and the courage?

J: (laughing).Uh, let's see, can I find it? (laughing)  I tell you what I can feel more than the patience and the courage.  What I can feel is the frustration and the fear.  That's a big knot right here. (pointing to solar plexus)

F: So, let's look at it.

J: Okay, it's a round, black knot.

F: What's it made out of?

J: A real oily, heavy rope, like that real heavy rope they tie boats with, real thick.

F: So this is a knot?

J: Yeah, it s like the end of a rope, though, it's not like in the middle of a rope.  It's like when you tie a knot right at the end of a rope, it's like that.

F: So, is there a rope there that the knot's attached to?

J: Yeah.

F: Where does the rope go?

J: It goes inside, I don't think it's very long, it's only about, less than a foot.

F: Is it attached to anything?

J: It might be attached to my spinal column.  It's like, it goes straight back, it's real stiff, and it goes straight back in. Then, there might be little tentacles that go up my spinal column, little pieces of the rope, not the whole rope.


F: Okay, what would you like to do with that?

J: Just pull it out, I think.

F: You see how to do that.

J: I grab hold of the knot and just pull.  I don't think that's such a good idea, as I pull it, it just keeps coming and coming and coming and coming and coming, these strands.

F: So, what does it need in order to let go?

J: I don't know, I try to pull, it's not like it's hanging on.

F: It’s not hanging on?

J: I’m just going to pull it for a while and see what happens.  I pull, and pull.  I just keep getting this pile of stuff that looks like noodles.  I'm just getting noodles, coming out and coming out.

F: Is there a source of those noodles, somewhere in there?

J: Yeah, at the base of my neck, at the brainstem.

F: So, go back up there, where all the noodles are coming from.  What's the source look like?

J: It's all white up there, and there’s just these little skinny noodles, almost like snakes.

F: Oh, can you go back where it’s being produced?

J: Can't, it’s like this little factory, or something that's…

F: It's like a little factory in there, what's the factory look like?

J: I see lots of metal, and like a trap door that I can't get behind, that the noodles come out of.

F: Mm hmm, so there's this trap door you can't get by?

J: I'm trying, let’s see if I can sneak in there when it opens up.  When I do that, there's this little space between the trap door, and it's like my brain.  It's like all these little crevices that you see in the brain.  Uhm, l think the brain's making it.  It’s kind of slimy looking stuff.

F: Mm hmm, so what part of the brain is making it?  Is it noodles, or is it something else?

J: It's just tissue that looks like noodles.  When it comes out of the trap door, it looks like noodles.  It's much more slimy.  What's it like?..Just like connective tissue, real thin connective tissue.  It's coming from the sides and the bottom of the brain, down to the brainstem.  It's not coming from up on the top.  It's all, kind of, at the neck and the back of the brain, coming down to the neck.

F: Mm hmm.

J: Like it's a mucous that turns into a tissue that turns into the noodles.

F: So, what's producing the mucous?

J: It's like having a cold, you know.  Uhh...

F: Like a post sinus drip.

J: Yeah, coming out of the crevices of my brain.

F: So, what does your brain need in order to…

J: Well, it somehow needs to get a message that it doesn't need to work so hard, I mean, this is all excess stuff.

F: Ahh, so, who do you know that can send your brain a message that it doesn't need to work so hard, to produce all this excess...

J: I think it either has to be me, or, l think, maybe this salamander can do something.

F: Hmm, what's the salamander doing?

J: It just kind of checks this thing out, it kind of likes this slimy place, yuck.  I just got this gross image.


F: What's this?

J: The salamander is going around and eating up all this slime ghhh.

F: It likes it, huh?

J: Yeah, gross.

F: So, when it eats it up, what happens?

J: He's still working on it, there's a lot of it around.  It's so gross.  Well, there's one problem, that is the salamander's getting awful big.

F: So..

J: Maybe if I wait until he finishes eating it up, than I can get him to leave after.  He’s starting to look like and iguana, he's looking so big, now he's little again.

F: Hmm, what's happening?

J: He's still eating away.  He's not getting bigger now, he's just kind of eating and eating.  But, he's not growing anymore.

F: Is he keeping on top of it?

J: Yeah, almost, I think it's called a symbiotic relationship, (laughing)

F: You understand the symbiotic relationship between these two parts.

J: Mm hmm.

F: What's the salamander?

J: Uhm, the brain, I guess, is the nurturer, it's so gross.

F: Remember where we started with this image.  It was a knot on the end of a rope, it was fear and frustration.

J: Mm hmm.

F: And it went up, you couldn't pull it out, but it went all the way up into the brain where there's a factory that produces all this mucous, that becomes tissue.  The tissue becomes the rope with the knot in it that is fear and frustration.  Is it then the fear and frustration factory in the brain?


J: Yeah, I guess so.

F: And what's the salamander?

J: It takes care of the fear and frustration so it doesn't materialize.

F: But, what does the salamander represent?

J: (laughing) Uhm.

F: What does the salamander do?

J: Eats that stuff up.

F: Well, the salamander was playful and just in its own self, its being.  It frolics when it's in its own element.  It's kind of natural...

J: Kind of the opposite of fear and frustration.

F: Mm hmm, so, there's these two competing energies, right?

J: Mm hmm.

F: The natural producer of fear and frustration.  That's one program.  Then, there's this new program with the salamander, that is, when you allow yourself to play, frolic and dance and just be.  And when you..

J: Mm hmm.

F: …allow yourself to be in tune with the salamander, it just eats up all that fear and stuff.  Is that correct?

J: Yup, yup.  It does stay on top of it.  Oh, gross.

F: So, where does this gross stuff get produced in the brain, where did it start?

J: From what I can see, there's lots of sources.  I mean, it's not coming from just one place.

F: It comes from a lot of different sources.

J: Yeah, it's all around the base, the back of the brain, it doesn't seem to come from the top, but the back and the sides; it just oozes out all over.

F: So, it's accumulated over a long time.

J:. Mm hmm.

F: At least one solution is to just let the salamander go and have its heyday gobbling up all this fear and frustration.  How do all your other inner characters respond to this.

J: The crockadile is sitting there shaking his head, wagging his tail, saying yup, that's right.  The turtle is just kind of walking around checking out the brain to see if the salamander got everything.  It's pretty good.  He has to be careful he doesn't fall into the crevices.  The whales, they're real happy, there's lots more places to swim now.  The water's clear of all that gunk. Yeah.

F: So there's more clear water.  The whales and the turtle and the alligator and the salamander are all happy?

J: Yeah, (laughing)  There's not a cage big enough for all of them. (laughing)

F: So, what's happening with the human characters, the twenty-four-year old, the twenty-eight-year old, the teenager, and the little kid?

J: They're watching all puzzled by it all.  The three year old wants to pet the salamander and swim with the whales and catch the turtle and just look at the alligator.  The teenager is fascinated by the alligator.

F: What's fascinating about it?

J: Its unpredictability, its power.  The twenty-four-year old wants to take everybody and walk in the meadow.  She says, "Come on, let's get going."  She wants to make sure the salamander keeps eating the gunk.  The twenty-eight-year old is kind of skeptical about it all. She believes in the salamander and knows that's real, but a little leery about all these other characters.

F: It was the twenty-eight-year old who was most revolted by the salamander.  It's now accepting of the salamander?

J: Very appreciating of the salamander.

F: This seems very important.  What about the adult?

J: I'm really relieved, I'm just enjoying the sight of all the cast of characters, all in the same picture.  I'm especially relieved that I'm not repulsed by that stupid salamander any more.


F: Mm, so, what's happening in your brain, where the swelling was?

J: It feels really clean, it still feels swollen, but like it's going to go down.

F: You see the swollen?

J:. Just a little bit, yeah, it's like a little bulge.  It's not red or anything, it's a fleshy kind of color.  There's a bulge there.

F: What's that bulge look like?

J: It looks like a golf ball with a pimple on it.

F: Hmm, what would you like to do with the golf ball with the pimple?

(end of tape)

J: Let's see, I just gently lift up on it, it's almost gone.  I'll try some over here.  lt popped out over here on this side.

F: On the right side?

J: Yeah.

F: What does it need?

J: It just needs a reassuring touch, a cradling.  I think it's real raw, it needs nurturing, gentle nurturing.

F: Are there enough sources of that?

J: Mm, yeah.

F: Bring those sources of nurturing to that place in your neck where the golf ball is.

J. It goes away.

F: How does it feel?

J: It feels good, it feels wider and not swollen.  It's a little tender, tender like new skin.

F: Good, what's happening up in your brain, now?

J: Salamander's got everything under control, the knot is gone.  I feel lot's of heat at the bottom of my neck, the bottom of my brain feels good, just like warm heat.

F: You feel that at the physical level?  Let's let that cook for a while, and go down to your hip area. J. Let's take some time and integrate this.  This was really significant stuff.

F: So, do you want to just share what's coming up that's significant.

J: It's such a relief to feel okay about this salamander.  It's really been bugging me because I've been so repulsed by it.  Uhm, I think the source of this stuff coming out of my brain is real important.  The integration of the twenty-four and the twenty-eight-year old and me is one I've been wrestling with for a long time on the subconscious level.  I have a feeling I still have to deal with the twenty-eight-year old a little bit more, but we made progress to day.

F: She's willing to go along?

J: She's been the driver for a long, long time.  Her identity's hung up too.  Uhm, it was surprising to me, how much feeling was tied up with the twenty-four-year old making a contribution.  That's been an empty part of my life for quite a while.  I had no idea there was so much feeling wrapped up in that.  I kind of associated it with the sense of satisfaction, more than real feeling, deep feeling.  The other thing, I've sort of known in the back of my mind, but haven't really acknowledged it, is this leave of absence, in my head is always going to be, eventually I was just going to quit, and I'm just going to, in my husband's words, I'm going to retire.  We bought this piece of property in Pescadero and I'm just going to that tend a garden and cook healthy food and live a very contented, retired life. I guess it's not either-or. I can still retire and do things that are meaningful and contribute.  It's the first time that I've felt comfortable with those two pieces coexisting, without a lot of tension.

I didn't realize that the twenty-eight-year old would need so much attention, yeah, okay, "Alright, everybody turn left.  We're going left now!"  You know (laughing), and everybody salutes and starts marching, because at a cognitive level, I made the decision that I don't want to be doing what I've been doing.  You know, over the last fifteen years, I don't want to do that anymore.  Physically, my body just can't do it anymore, it's just too tired.

F: You can't maintain the imbalance.

J: Yeah.

F: It's like each part represents an important essence in you, an important part of who you are.  And so, the part that wanted to be meaningful, and make a contribution, got frustrated with that and didn't feel, also needed acknowledgment, you know.  Then, you were feeling that your contribution wasn't really going to make a difference. So, you were frustrated.  You switched into the opposite mode, you know, where you get some of that recognition on some level, but that feels empty because it is not really meaningful.  Then, there's this assumption that's built in that it's impossible.

J: Either, or.

F: You can't have both, then, there are other players.  The driving underlying motivation doesn't get fulfilled.  That leads to exhaustion.

J: Mm hmm, there's no replenishing of the well at all.

F: And then, to go back to the replenishing, which is the salamander and the alligator and those other more primitive aspects, feels like I'm giving up the very purpose for why I'm here.  So, to return to that feels like, or is

perceived as, undermining the purpose and meaning.  There's a Catch-22 relationship between them, so, the twenty-eight-year old, who's invested so much in trying, and the twenty-four year old, trying to create meaning and get acknowledgement and stuff, are at the end of the burnout path.  But, to go back and accept that which will replenish the well, feels like an anathema.  To bring all those parts together is, in a sense, maybe there is in some way a way for me to have meaning, excitement, challenge.

J: And balance.

F: And energy, and replenishment, play and fun.  Then, the whole thing can be built on those positive values rather than out of this knot of fear and frustration that has grown out of those attempts to make it work in ways that didn't, because of external and internal forces, whatever.  Some of that is, the roots of that, are in generational fears and cross-cultural fears and tensions and stuff.  All of those layers come together in a way where you have some aspect, some way of being, that fulfills your values and your essence.

J: Mm hmm, it's kind of like your own personal "Three Faces of Eve," isn't it? (laughing)  These multiple personalities inside yourself. (laughing)

F: Well, we're all multiple.  The difference between the multiplicity of the self and a multiple personality is that the multiple personality is totally split off.  There's no safe way for them to live in the same body and to be aware and accepting of each other.  That’s an anathema to them.  Most multiples were seriously abused, so, they had to fragment themselves.  We're all multiple, in that sense, I mean, in the sense of having a multiplicity of the self.  We're in a culture where that's not accepted.  We're supposed to have an ego with a single focus.  In a way, that's the real illness.

J: The denial of all the other pieces.

F: I'm a whole community of differentiate values, and people.

J: No kidding, no kidding.  The turtle and the whales came in dreams.

F: Recently?

J: Over the past six or eight months, I guess.  The whale dream was a really powerful one.  I was on this boat with my brother, and the whales were just. I mean the ocean was just a sea of whales.  They were really powerful, on each side, underneath the boat, in front of us, behind us.  I mean it was just, you couldn't, the waves that you thought you saw, were whales coming up out of the water.  It was really powerful.

And the turtle is a Japanese green cheese turtle, (laughing)  It's huge.

F: So, what is green cheese?

J: Smelly, rotten, old...

F: On another metaphorical level, what is green cheese?

J: I don't know.


F: It's a metaphor for the Moon.

J: Oh, yeah.

F: For kids, you know..

J: Yeah, green cheese, yeah.

F: There's mythology about the turtle.  There might be some archetypal symbols.

J: And it has the look of the "man in the Moon," with those eyes.

F: When you are in tune with the Moon and the sand, that's when your neck is there.  So, keeping that larger image of the Moon helps you keep your larger vision.  The turtle would then aptly fit.  It's a larger collective image that connects you not just to the self, but to a larger sense of meaning.  That was missing for the twenty-four-year old. That larger sense of how I am connected, what is the meaning of my life.

J: Mm hmm.

F: Does that make any sense?

J: Yes, it's amazing how complex it is.  I mean, on the one hand, I know its complex, but when you really get in and look, it takes me a half hour to explain all the characters, right? (laughing)  Every time you turn around there's another one. (laughing)

F: It's a whole dimension of life that we're missing out on.

J: yeah.

F: The “implicate order” that David Bohm talks about.  We're looking at a flat Earth outside when there is this whole multiple dimensional universe inside.

J: Yeah, dimension isright (laughing), yeah, yeah.  The thing that's amazing to me is that I'm not impressed.  I've shared a lot of what we've talked about with J.J. when I'm on the table, when she's working on me.  And she was, she made a comment.  “I just can't believe how creative you are."  Then she went on. “I get excited when I see a hanger with light  coming through it and you have these turtles, and salamanders and alligators with overalls on, and you know, it’s kind of amazing.  If I listed my attributes, way at the bottom would be creativity.  It's kind of amazing to me that I’m not impressed with it, because when I stand back and really think about it, this is very creative.  I mean it’s kind of like, I'm not really creating it, it's just kind of there, you know.

F: But, that's what creativity is, it’s allowing the conscious self to be in tune and in relationship with the imaginal and being a channel for that.  So, creative people are often uncomfortable with ownership of what comes through them.

J: Ohh, I see.

F: That's not from me, that happened to me.

J: Yeah, that's much more how I see it.  It's not something I do, it’s just kind of there.

F: But that is the creative dimension, so being open to that, being a channel for that is creativity.  We're being co-creators with the larger dimension.  And the doing part is the worker who puts it in form.  In a sense, it's a natural progression for you to have gone to the outer world to lay the foundation of those skills and talents and then to..

J: Come back.

F: run the course with that and then to come back, and reconnect to the child, to reconnect to the wellspring.  Jung said that there was a point in time when he recognized his personality one, and personality two, which is the ego and the larger unconscious self.  He had a dream where he was walking with a candle into the darkness ahead.  It cast a shadow backwards.  He knew that if he turned backwards to took he could get drawn into the unconscious.  He needed to keep going forward, holding the candle and keeping the flame alive.  He worked hard on his outer world disciplines.  He built sand castles and later built a stone house to ground his relationship to both dimensions.  He consciously worked at developing his practical conscious side until he had enough grounding.

The fact that you have done all that, laying the ground work, then creates space for the other side to exist and bring it back into alignment

J: So, it's not unusual for the pendulum to swing like this.  That's what I kind of feel like, you know.

F: What?

J: The pendulum swung way over here, and now it's going to swing back and settle some place.

F And that's okay.

J: Mm hmm.

F: That's how it is, and you were energized in each of those places.  That doesn’t devalue those places you were in, it just means the energy ran out in that cycle and then you thought, “wait a minute, I thought this was the end cycle."  It wasn't the end but just one aspect that's being filled out and now I go to the next one, but I don't have a picture of how all the pieces are part of the whole.

(Session ended.)